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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: DEP/ARR STILL not fixed in b5 - Hans?
    Posted: November-10-2005 at 12:42pm
Hans,

I've made at least three detailed posts on this issue litteraly since the day the ATR came out and I've never even received an acknowlegement and word that it'll be looked at.  As an experienced tester for another well-known addon company, I don't think this is something I'm doing incorrectly with the FMC.  The problem is still present in the new beta5 of SP3 and I'm increasingly worried that it isn't going to be fixed.

Here's an exact series of reproduction steps and explanation of the problem again for you:

What's happening is that the DEP/ARR page is not displaying SID/STAR transitions and their selection mechanism correctly.  Either it doesn't display them at all, displays them in the wrong place, or it does not display all of the ones that are coded into the file.

Here's an example:

1. Load the ATR at KTUS runway 29R.

2. Bring up the FMC, enter KTUS for the origin and KPHX as the destination.

3. Go to the DEP/ARR page and select KTUS departures - select runway 29R, and then select the TUS6 SID.  The final transition, SUNSS, does not show up on the next page as it should accorrding to the file.  Also, not choosing a transition still loads the waypoints from the CIE transition despite never having selected it.  It should load the common portion of the SID only (which in this case is just the TUS VOR).





SUNSS transition is here in the text file, but does not show in the FMC:


P|TUS6|ALL|CIE|0|4
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|MESCA|31894017|-110485528| |TF|0|0|0|10700|2500|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|CIE|32033389|-109758203|CIE|TF|0|0|0|6500|3800|0|0|0|0|0 |0|0|0

P|TUS6|ALL|GBN|0|4
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|ROSKR|32281827|-111462082| |TF|0|0|0|28000|3000|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|GBN|32956258|-112674272|GBN|TF|0|0|0|28900|7400|0|0|0|0| 0|0|0|0

P|TUS6|ALL|PXR|0|4
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|SUNSS|33041686|-111566969|PXR|TF|0|127|0|31800|6600|0|0| 0|0|0|0|0|0
S|PXR|33433017|-111970200|PXR|TF|0|127|0|30700|3100|0|0|0| 0|0|0|0|0

P|TUS6|ALL|SSO|0|4
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|REDDY|32331092|-110583142| |TF|0|0|0|3800|2200|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|SSO|32269244|-109263086|SSO|TF|0|0|0|8100|6700|0|0|0|0|0 |0|0|0

P|TUS6|ALL|SUNSS|0|3
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|SUNSS|33041686|-111566969| |TF|0|0|0|31800|6600|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0


Now, go to KPHX Arrivals page and select runway 26.  Inexplicably, transitions appear on the right, not left side of the CDU below the runways, even though I have not selected a STAR yet.  They appear to be the transitions for a bunch of different STARs, but this is totally wrong, I haven't even selected a STAR yet and they should appear on the left below the STARs when I do, not on the right.







Now, try selecting the SUNSS5 STAR - no transitions whatsoever show up despite being there in the file:



Both proper transitions are coded in the file, but do not show AT ALL in the FMC:


P|SUNSS5|ALL|SSO|0|9
S|SSO|32269244|-109263086|SSO|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|ITEMM|32586481|-110589769|TFD|TF|0|93|6900|27300|7000|0| 0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|CROME|32723689|-111185569|TFD|TF|0|93|3800|27300|3100|0| 0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|SLAMN|32740597|-111260044|TFD|TF|0|93|3400|27300|400|0|0 |0|0|0|0|0|0
S|BBALL|32965790|-111489340|PXR|TF|0|127|3700|30700|1800|0 |0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|SUNSS|33041686|-111566969|PXR|TF|0|127|3100|30700|600|0| 1|9000|0|0|0|0|0
S|SUNSS|33041686|-111566969|PXR|IF|0|127|3100|0|0|0|0|0|0| 0|0|0|0
S|HOOPS|33319544|-111852761|PXR|TF|0|127|900|30700|2200|0| 0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|PXR|33433017|-111970200|PXR|TF|0|127|0|30700|900|0|0|0|0 |0|0|0|0

P|SUNSS5|ALL|TUS|0|6
S|TUS|32095190|-110914868|TUS|IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|DUNKK|32975236|-111520656|TUS|TF|0|318|6100|31800|6100|0 |0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|SUNSS|33041686|-111566969|PXR|TF|0|127|3100|31800|500|0| 0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|SUNSS|33041686|-111566969|PXR|IF|0|127|3100|0|0|0|0|0|0| 0|0|0|0
S|HOOPS|33319544|-111852761|PXR|TF|0|127|900|30700|2200|0| 0|0|0|0|0|0|0
S|PXR|33433017|-111970200|PXR|TF|0|127|0|30700|900|0|0|0|0 |0|0|0|0


The same thing occurs here with the STAR as did with the SID too - selecting no transition actually results in the loading of the SSO transition (seems like it's just picking the first one that's there), when it should only load the common portion per the chart.  I assume from the format that this is why certain waypoints are there twice, to tell the FMC that's the point where the common portion that should load with no transition is.

These same problems occur at almost every airport I've tried.

I don't mean to be a nuissence to you, but to me this is a very major issue with the FMC because it basically means I need to manually build any SID or STAR I wish to fly that exhibits these problems on the DEP/ARR pages.  For complex ones, this can be a real task. (it's the reason why the process is automated for pilots in the first place!)  It really kills the experience for me and is the sole thing preventing me from making the ATR a more regular choice when I fly.  I'd love to get the new FS2Crew addon for it as well, but I don't see myself going through the trouble of this amount of manual programming every time I want to go fly...

If I'm doing something wrong to produce this, please let me know, but based on my experience with almost every other FMC equiped addon out there as well as access to the real world manuals, I don't think the problem is on my end.

Could someone please let me know if this is going to be looked at?  I'd really love to see a solution for it.

Thank you,
Ryan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-10-2005 at 1:07pm

Ryan,

SID transitions are different to the Approach transitions you see on the STAR pages.

SID transitions give the route from the end of the SID to your route.

Stars have a transition to the STAR and then an approach transition to the runway. Those are approach transitions on the right and not star transitions. When you select your star, then the transitions should be listed on the left below your selection.

And no idea why your last SID does not show listed on page two as indicated.

 

Graeme NZ

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Hartmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-10-2005 at 1:11pm
Sorry. I've not been too well recently and skipped a lot of messages on this forum. I will look into this. It's probably (likely?) only a display problem.
Best regards,
Hans
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-11-2005 at 8:37am
Originally posted by Graeme Graeme wrote:

Ryan,

SID transitions are different to the Approach transitions you see on the STAR pages.

SID transitions give the route from the end of the SID to your route.

Stars have a transition to the STAR and then an approach transition to the runway. Those are approach transitions on the right and not star transitions. When you select your star, then the transitions should be listed on the left below your selection.

And no idea why your last SID does not show listed on page two as indicated.

Graeme NZ


Graeme,

No they aren't.  Trust me, I live and fly in this area of the world - there are no approach transitions at KPHX like that - those are very obviously STAR transition start points for the ARLIN3, BUNTR1, COYOT1, SUNSS5 etc being displayed in the wrong place.  The ATR does not even have approaches in its database, just runways.  When I selected runway 26 in that shot, I did not pick "ILS 26" as you would on the LDS or PMDG FMC - indivudual approach choices like that are not an option on the ATR in its procedure database. 

Just to be clear,  I'm talking about the sort of thing where it will actually load the fixes that make up the approach, which will be different depending on whether you selected the ILS, VOR/DME, RNAV, or GPS approach to that runway etc.  The approach transitions are almost always fixes very close to the airport that lead you to the initial approach fix, not VORs that are hundreds of miles away from the airport like most of the ones in those screen shots are.

Hans, thank you so much for looking at it.  I agree it looks like a display issue too - the navdata format seems logically laid out and correct to me, it's just not giving me the choices that should be there...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-11-2005 at 3:39pm

I was talking generally and quoting from the Honeywell & Smiths manuals. Many flight simmers dont understand the structure of SIDS as compared with STARS and the fact that there are Transitions to the approaches - not to be confused with the transitions to the STARS.

I would have to go to the Jeppenson disk to see what is available at KPHX and the disc is too old to be of use.    Ive only flown the ATR around NZ and the STARS, approaches and transitions are all there and match the docs for the airports.

Graeme http://www.commandfliteware.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-11-2005 at 4:14pm

Also in the FMS manual with the F1-ATR I dont see any auto-tuning of navaids as is in say the B767/744 /777 and that may be a requirement for VOR approaches and explain why they are not in the data base for the ATR.

Graeme

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2005 at 9:33am
Originally posted by Graeme Graeme wrote:

Also in the FMS manual with the F1-ATR I dont see any auto-tuning of navaids as is in say the B767/744 /777 and that may be a requirement for VOR approaches and explain why they are not in the data base for the ATR.

Graeme



Autotuning of VOR's is certainly not a requirement to fly a VOR/DME approach!  I can fly one in the default Cesnaa right now with a proper chart...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2005 at 1:15pm

You are mis-understanding me. It is normally a requirement  for  FMS precision approaches, that the FMS system have particular specifications with regard to the requirements for triple laser ring gyros, possibly an additional two GPS systems and auto-updating of those systems by navaids coupled with auto-tuning of the navaids. If the a/c doesnt have that capability then you wont find those options available in the approach lists in the arrivals page i.e not in the data base either.

Yes you can hand fly a VOR/DME or NDB approach. If you read my message again you will see the word FMS mentioned i.e flight management system. You originally complained that those approaches were not in the data base of the ATR. In reality in the real a/c systems, if the a/c's FMS is not capable of handling it then it wont be in the data base.

I wont bother trying to assist any more - its a waste of time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-15-2005 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by Graeme Graeme wrote:

You are mis-understanding me. It is normally a requirement  for  FMS precision approaches, that the FMS system have particular specifications with regard to the requirements for triple laser ring gyros, possibly an additional two GPS systems and auto-updating of those systems by navaids coupled with auto-tuning of the navaids. If the a/c doesnt have that capability then you wont find those options available in the approach lists in the arrivals page i.e not in the data base either.

Yes you can hand fly a VOR/DME or NDB approach. If you read my message again you will see the word FMS mentioned i.e flight management system. You originally complained that those approaches were not in the data base of the ATR. In reality in the real a/c systems, if the a/c's FMS is not capable of handling it then it wont be in the data base.

I wont bother trying to assist any more - its a waste of time.



I still have no idea what you're talking about - on a 737 or a 767, those approaches are in the FMC database to load onto the ND/EHSI as a referrence - you're still monitoring the raw data from the ILS or VOR when you do the apprroach.  A VOR approach is inherently non-precision.

Are you telling me that you've seen the ATR FMC display selectable approaches on the right side of the arrival airport's DEP/ARR page as is seen on the PMDG products, LDS etc?  I have never seen this, it just has STARs and runway choices.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-15-2005 at 8:41pm

I still have no idea what you're talking about - on a 737 or a 767, those approaches are in the FMC database to load onto the ND/EHSI as a referrence - you're still monitoring the raw data from the ILS or VOR when you do the apprroach.  A VOR approach is inherently non-precision.

That is correct because those a/c have the capability to perform those approaches with their systems. (INS, radio tuning and updating) and yes they monitor them with the normal navaids. If they come off LNAV/VNAV then they must hand fly them per the flight directors.

No I have not seen them there as (in the ATR) as it is not capable of flying them with a GPS based FMS system.

 


 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Hartmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2005 at 1:56am
It seems that at least VOR/DME approaches are available. They are not shown in the current ATR because of a simplified nav data format. I'm currently reworking the FMC and it will show the everything. The lower screenshot shows the arrival page of my CRJ FMC which is based on the same engine as the ATR.



Best regards,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jet1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2005 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Tabs Tabs wrote:


I still have no idea what you're talking about - on a 737 or a 767, those approaches are in the FMC database to load onto the ND/EHSI as a referrence - you're still monitoring the raw data from the ILS or VOR when you do the apprroach.  A VOR approach is inherently non-precision.


Even though you make all this sound very confusing I think I understand what Graeme means.

The difference is that the FMS and navigation equipment of a 737 or 767 are approved for the type of published RNAV transitions (forget the STAR transitions) that we are walking about. Which are, the ones that can be flown on full LNAV/VNAV and they usually lead you all the way to the IAF/FAF. I think (not sure) that the equipment requirements state a certain precision (within 1NM 80% of the time or something..) and that the system cannot be dependant of a single source. 767's have VOR autotuning and IRS. 737's have their IRS and GPS.

The ATR's "simpler" GPS-only based equipment is NOT approved for these kinds of precision RNAV operations at least where I live. ATR's will not be assigned RNAV transitions or cannot perform RNAV SID from certain runways. They will need to ask for vectors or a "traditional" STAR. That is why the database does not have these, not even for reference. That quoted from an actual AT72 pilot.

Pardon me if I'm stating obvious things here.

As for how the ATR's DEP/ARR menu is supposed to work, beats me. I've always thought it is a bit strange but that might also be my outdated navdata..

-Kyle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2005 at 12:53am

THANKYOU  KYLE<G>>.... bang on !!!.........

RNP - required navigational performance depending on oceanic, enroute, terminal and approach areas.

I initially did have probs with the DEP/ARR menu but have it worked out now. From memory on the LEGS page it comes up with the runway as the first waypont  and then the SID waypoints and onto the route then all is well.

Ive asked my ATR pilot contact some info about what it is exactly capable of and will post it when I get it.

Graeme

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TH2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2005 at 1:35am
Originally posted by Jet1 Jet1 wrote:

...
The ATR's "simpler" GPS-only based equipment is NOT approved for these kinds of precision RNAV operations at least where I live. ATR's will not be assigned RNAV transitions or cannot perform RNAV SID from certain runways. They will need to ask for vectors or a "traditional" STAR. That is why the database does not have these, not even for reference. That quoted from an actual AT72 pilot.
.



Hello..
false statement...

The ATR is equiped with a GNSS computer called NPU, that, in its last revision, is able to do BRNAV flights.

This computer use its own GPS but also The two DME computers.

have a good day...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2005 at 3:41am

...and as promised just in from an acutal ATR pilot which confirms that what was being discussed is dependent on the navset installed:

"You can only use AFCS for assistance with a VOR/VOR DME approach and the nav aids do not auto tune on ours but if I recall the Origin )an ATR under charter to Origin Pacific) ones had a auto function for enroute auto tuning ie NZCH-NZWB-NZWN.

If you use AFCS for a VOR approach you just push the NAV button on the panel this will ensure you remain on the inbound radial, but you will have to adjust your rate of descent with the VS wheel.  As for ILS you just push the the APP button and it does everything for you loc* & GS* functions. 
 
Graeme
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jet1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2005 at 6:18am
Originally posted by TH2A TH2A wrote:


The ATR is equiped with a GNSS computer called NPU, that, in its last revision, is able to do BRNAV flights.
This computer use its own GPS but also The two DME computers.


You caught me with GPS, you are probably right. However, B-RNAV (Basic) is still not approved for the kinds of approach transitions I meant, which require P-RNAV capability (Precision).

-Kyle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TH2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2005 at 6:28am
Originally posted by Jet1 Jet1 wrote:



You caught me with GPS, you are probably right. However, B-RNAV (Basic) is still not approved for the kinds of approach transitions I meant, which require P-RNAV capability (Precision).



Hi..

The P RNAV capability is done by the last mod of the system. excuse me for using the wrong words :) or wrong keys...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jet1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2005 at 7:02am
Originally posted by TH2A TH2A wrote:


The P RNAV capability is done by the last mod of the system. excuse me for using the wrong words :) or wrong keys...


Great, it's likely that in the future all commercial aircraft will need to be able to P-RNAV   But I guess the latest system is not modelled in the F1 ATR. Thanks for clarifying.


-Kyle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2005 at 1:02pm
If you do a google search on ATR FMS or ATR 72-500 you will see that many companies compete for navigation sets /cockpit installation for various aircraft. It is the operator's choice as to what navigation standard they require. You may have Smiths, Honeywell and Thales all competing with their own variations of similar products. It isnt like an automobile - take it or leave it or one size fits all. Aviation is very different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2005 at 6:50pm
Ok you guys are seriously misunderstanding me:

Loading ILS, VOR, etc approaches into the FMS and displaying them on the EHSI/ND as Hans showed in his CRJ shots are NOT dependent on the type of certification the plane's navigation system has - they are a referrence for the pilot!  Think about it, you can load these approaches in the default FS GPS in a C172 and it's not going to fly them for you using the IRS/GPS ala a real RNAV system, it's just a graphical reference of what the approach path looks like including the step down fixes, IAF, etc.

I fully understand that certain aircraft do not have the capability to do an automated RNAV or GPS approach where the FMS is considered to be the primary source of navigational data. (because the "raw data" for those approaches IS the IRS/GPS)  Whether the plane is certified for such new types of approaches shouldn't determine whether older types such as ILS, VOR, BC, LOC are in the navigation database and appear on the DEP/ARR screen.  The point is to have a picture of the actual approach fixes on the EHSI/ND *as it looks on a chart*, as opposed to a simple FMS created CFXX waypoint 12 miles out or whatever with a straight line to the runway. 

Perhaps GPS and RNAV approaches would in fact be absent from the database of a plane not equipped to fly them, but I see absolutely no reason that representations of ALL approaches should be absent just because the plane can't do RNAV/GPS ones.  I think Hans and I are on the same page with this.

Hans,

That looks great if you're gonna move the CRJ FMC functionality over to the ATR, thanks again for paying attention to this stuff!

Ryan
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